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Forum:Name Spellings
Forum:Inconsistencies Major Cleanup: I think its time this was brought up again. The name spellings should not have been changed just because of one name being spelled that way. As far as we know Oda has really only ever romanized names with the double u spelling, since databooks are usually worked on by the mangaka's assistants. If you want to count those then he romanized Hyouzou with the double u spelling in the manga itself. SeaTerror 00:03, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Bumping this. Inacceptable that we use the option with no votes based on one example that may or may not be canon. 11:28, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :And then, Oda creates the Taiyou Pirates (Sun Pirates) and then writes the word "TAIYO" on their ship's main sail... :Using an extra "u" no matter what is even more wrong than using none since in most cases it's a wrong romanization. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 16:18, January 20, 2012 (UTC) You're going to have to show that from the manga then. It is also never a wrong romanization. There are 3 different ways to romanize and to be technical using macrons is the most correct way to romanize. SeaTerror 17:06, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :Volume 63, Chapter 624. Oda has the "TAIYO" on the sail - on the same page they're described as タイヨウの海賊団. :ou as standard is therefore wrong because it's ambiguous. Read wikipedia:Wāpuro rōmaji#Phonetic_accuracy and the formerly given link, please. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 17:41, January 20, 2012 (UTC) No it is not wrong. It it is flat out ignorant to think it is wrong. Like I said, there are 3 main ways to romanize. None of them are wrong and if you want to go in order then it is 1) Macrons as the most correct, 2)double u as the second most correct for pronunciation reasons, and 3) a single u which is the least correct. SeaTerror 18:13, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :It is wrong when it becomes ambiguous to correct spellings where you have to differ between extended vowels and compounds. You're only prefering ou while having no reasons at all. Hyouzou is one example for Oda using ou, that's it. Using this as general example is wrong as proven by Oda using TAIYO. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 18:35, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Just no. It is never wrong to use "ou" It is a form of romanization just like how macrons and a single u such as Ryuuma vs Ryuma are forms of romanization. It still doesn't mean anything. It was wrong to switch all the name spellings in the first place because of one spelling. SeaTerror 19:19, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :So, you haven't read the Wikipedia articles. :Breaking it down to simply "o" or "u" instead of "ou" or "uu" isn't wrong, either. "ou" is ambiguous and therefore wrong. And if you prefer the ambiguous "ou" there's no reason to break it down to a simple "o" since this is also a legal romanization. "Tōkyō" is often spelled "Tokyo". Even "Shōnen Jump" is spelled "Shonen Jump" (..."The worldwide Portal of Shonen Jump"). -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 19:59, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Once again you are wrong. There are 3 different ways to romanize. Using "ou" or "uu" is not wrong no matter how much you say it is. Also those are real life examples and not names from the manga. SeaTerror 20:08, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :But, TAIYO is the example I used first. And still there's no reason from you to switch to "ou" in general since it is ambiguous and therefore wrong if not officially used by Oda. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 20:21, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Not officially used by Oda? http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/630/7 It was never wrong in the first place. The names were all changed because ONE name (Kaido instead of Kaidou) in the DATABOOK. Not the manga. SeaTerror 20:35, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :You may want to check the usage of the word IF, yes? :Before Oda started to give official romanizations in his tankobon summaries from volume 60+x and the wanted posters, there were only the databooks as official source. So it is still reasonable since Green was published WAY before Chapter 630. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 21:22, January 20, 2012 (UTC) Order of spelling correctness; Manga (first) -> SBS -> Data books -> anime -> Everything else (last). Thats the order we've always followed even in the early days, we had to develop this system due to issues with names spelt more then one way. Does matter if manga data and anime show each a different spelling, mabga spelling take priority. If there is more then one manga spelling, then we have an issue up for debate. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 21:38, January 20, 2012 (UTC) :Also for the curious as to why this order; manga is te main source of raw information, SBS is Oda's reaction to his fans first and foremost and his attempt to clear up information, the data books are sources approved by Oda but put together by others based on his work and the anime isa 3rd party perspective on it and has been known to make many spelling mistake, merchandise and other sources make things complex and have been known to be very out on their spellings or use multiple spellings on one product. If no other known spelling exists, but a dubbed version does (Viz or Funi), then we do, however, use that. Though dub names do not take president over offical names from the original source. One-Winged Hawk 21:42, January 20, 2012 (UTC) It actually was never reasonable. If one name is spelled one way that does not mean others are. In fact, that is a logical fallacy. SeaTerror 02:16, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :Then what would you suggest instead of manga (official) -> SBS (official) -> Databook (official) -> anime (errornous, but still official) -> translation? Macrons aren't barrier-free. "ou" is ambiguous and thus needs to be avoided in encyclopedia unless it's a transscription of a compound. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 04:25, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :We do what we're doing now and take name spellings as they come. 04:39, January 21, 2012 (UTC) Macrons are the most neutral since Oda has used both if you want to use macrons. Also that is false since it doesn't matter if this is an "encyclopedia." "Ou" is not wrong no matter how much you claim it is. DP, you forget we can always revote/reopen a discussion as long as a reasonable amount of time has passed. I forget if it was 3, 4, or 6 months that was decided on. SeaTerror 06:24, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :Then there's no guarantee from you that - even if all the others that want to keep the current regulations - you won't be trying to change it in let's say 4 months? Seriously, all I've been seeing from you is discussing for the cause. :And "ou" stays wrong, no matter how much you deny it and repeat they are right (without giving any proof which actually never fails not to surprise at all). -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 06:47, January 21, 2012 (UTC) I already gave you proof. Honestly, it is just flat out ignorant to think "ou" you is wrong when it is one of the three main forms of romanization. There really is no way to deny you're just being ignorant in that way. Macrons is the most neutral and correct way to spell the names even if I don't like it that way. SeaTerror 08:04, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :Just keep calling others "ignorant" if they're simply not on your side. It stays wrong if it becomes ambiguous. People misread names if you take "ou" as standard. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 16:32, January 21, 2012 (UTC) We originally used the rule "so long as it links to the right character its fine" in the early days of the wikia, things worked fine that way... Ever since we've gone over to trying to be accurate on names not yet written in Latin text, thats when I've seen the problems arise. Good reason too; guessing the spelling is a form of speculation, something the wikia isn't suppose to house on its pages. If there are issues you write about them in "Translations and Dub issues" section, thats what that tiny space ona page is for and has been since the whole Mihawk situation. It doesn't matter if suppose to be "Yuuma" or "Yūma" (using an example from another fandom here bare with me), the Japanese have a habbit of writing it as "Yuma" which is incorrect. Oda has made this same kind of mistake himself several times within the manga. Latin text never transfers into Japanese as well as we'd like or vice versa and half the Japanese popular don't realise when they do make mistakes. However, what Oda says goes, all other forms of spelling are meaningless once Oda tells us straight what its suppose to be and honestly... This feels a little like the old "cross the "t" and dot the "i"" level of nitpicking. ^_- One-Winged Hawk 17:01, January 21, 2012 (UTC) You are ignorant. You really cannot deny it. You are ignorant for saying "ou" is wrong when it is a main form of romanization. I also find it absolutely HILARIOUS that you think people can misread names if "ou" is used. Now you're just trying to discredit that form of spelling without any kind of basis because you don't like it. SeaTerror 17:26, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :Sea, can you put the comment with the correct commentor if you are replying to them, its harder to follow because right now your comment follows mine, but you apepar to still be talking to Defchris. One-Winged Hawk 17:33, January 21, 2012 (UTC) It becomes harder to find the comments if everybody does that. It is better to keep them all in a chronological order. SeaTerror 18:06, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :And mixing up the comments is les confusing? You didn't even adress Defchris at all, my first reaction when I saw that comment was "I haven't said anything about 'ou'". It only because I read it a second time I understood who you actually were talking to. Its why we use the ":" thingy at the begining of the sentances, it helps keep lines of conversations together. This is all how wikia comments are done. Start from th left handside with no ":" means your starting a new line of thought. I mean you've been around here long enough to know how coversations work... I mean come on.. I feel silly for having to even mention this to someone here. ¬_¬ One-Winged Hawk 18:12, January 21, 2012 (UTC) Aaand cut. Back to the main topic of the forum, people. There's no point if we get off track here. I'm going to use OWH's example of "Yuma" here. Now OWH is correct when she says that Yuma is not the correct way to romanize a japanese name, but that doesn't apply if you're actually translating the name into english. I in fact know a japanese-american named Yuma, and his name has a proper kanji/hiragana/katakana translation, but in america it's just Yuma. No macrons, no uu, no nothing. All those fancy things just makes it hard for people, especially the macrons. We are talking about translated Names, now aren't we? There is no right or wrong to this, and anyone can choose to make a name a bit unique and different. Just because there are americans named Rey doesn't mean that a japanese immigrant can't decide to make their child's name written as Rei. Just because a girl is born in summer and her named is pronounced like it doesn't mean her name can't be spelled "Summahr". Both aren't wrong, it's just creativity, and we go with Oda comes up with. Even if we have no translation in the first place, no need to follow one pattern just because of one name. What we are doing here is basically taking one spelling we see and forcing everything to be similar, such as seeing Rey and making everything that rhymes spelled with an ey (Mey, Dashey, etc) no matter what is stated. Also, the "ranking" we have here means that "no official spelling" is the last thing we want to use, so even if the only given spelling is from the anime, it is better to use that then trying to deny the spelling just because it was not directly from Oda's mouth and use a different spelling that most matches our SPECULATIONS. 22:17, January 22, 2012 (UTC) :I've understood romanizing words to be more than simply transliterate them, so it goes beyond the conversion from Kana to latin script. It's bringing them into the context of another language and make them easy to read especially for people that aren't familiar with neither the work nor Japanese script. And there macrons aren't "easy" since they aren't used in the standard latin alphabet (hence "not barrier-free"), and things like "ou" are ambiguous that you'd have to use things like apostrophs to make compounds distinguishable from them. :And let's face it: Without using "common sense" the time between the japanese release and the English localization on Viz, this wiki would run with character names like "Boa Hankokku", "Bāsoromyū Kuma", "Burukku", "Donkihōte Dofuramingo", "Jurakyūru Mihōku" or "Borusarīno" from their first appearance. (Especially the "ī" just sucks and is pretty hard to distinguish from the standard "i" like ンn and ソso.) Or the wiki would likely change the name every second day because different scans use different spellings (Gin <> Ghin). -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 00:38, January 23, 2012 (UTC) ::Fantranslations literally are only used on the wikia as a "first edition" of the name because thats usually all thats offered. After the inital first edition, we should really be hunting for a better name. ::Anyone remember Thriller Bark - not one fan translator got THAT name right. We had Thriller Park, Thriller Barque, and many more. Cindry was another because we had "Cindry" and "Thin Dolly" which, sadly, both were a plausible translation the majority of traslator went with "Cindry" and were right. Another example; "Margaret" which should have been "Marguerite". I could go on here you know! :-D ::Also I'll disagree with the use of Macrons, I expressed this concern myself when we had a debate before and they were brought up. I was put in my place because "Macrons are the most accurate spelling" and ignored. But you know, its just so much harder to work with them. I don't fancy repeating the whole arguments over macrons, because the arguements like "it takes only a moment to C + P" sort of spoils things. -_- One-Winged Hawk 18:02, January 24, 2012 (UTC) :Also, in reply to JapaneseOPfan, you pretty much hit a lot of what I've been saying on right on the head of the nail with the hammer. I'm glad someone "gets it" with the spelling issues at last. Still, this doesn't resolve all our problems and I think I favor the spelling being held up for debate per case with accordiance. One-Winged Hawk 18:14, January 24, 2012 (UTC) Bump. We still need to discuss this. SeaTerror 21:50, April 1, 2012 (UTC) ST is right this still needs to be put into consideration and discussed further. 11:52, May 4, 2012 (UTC) I'm bumping this because ST said. [[User: Weirdowithcoffee| KOROMO ]][[User Talk:Weirdowithcoffee| Talk ]] 15:53, May 28, 2012 (UTC) Just as ST points out in the very beginning of this forum, and has remained persistent all the way through, the use of macrons and 'ou' or 'uu' is the most correct way to spell these names when romanizing them. 07:46, June 14, 2012 (UTC) Time for a bump for this. It was incredibly stupid to have changed all the names just because of how one name was spelled in the databook. Let's change Big Mom's article to Big Mam because of the databook too! SeaTerror (talk) 20:03, July 16, 2012 (UTC) Other poll? Khaliszt (talk) No, we don't need a poll for such a stupid thing like this. 16:26, July 22, 2012 (UTC) This discussion wouldn't last forever if it was really stupid.. anyway I was being a bit sarcastic.. Khaliszt (talk) This discussion had been going on forever because the people arguing over this are just stubborn. 16:46, July 22, 2012 (UTC) Looks like you have your point of view very clear and 0% stubborn then.. What would you do or not do about it? Khaliszt (talk) 16:52, July 22, 2012 (UTC) There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a poll for this. People were fucking idiots and decided to change the names of all characters just because one name was spelled the other way. If this forum is continued to being ignored then I will just change the names back. They brought it upon themselves. SeaTerror (talk) 17:06, July 22, 2012 (UTC) Well it's on the most weightful ones hands to decide if there wil be other poll or not.. but what are you going to do, re-change all the names? It's still nonsense otherwise too Khaliszt (talk) 17:41, July 22, 2012 (UTC) I just say there is still a discussion on this.. the only way to solve it is like that. What were the names changed to? Khaliszt (talk) 17:14, July 22, 2012 (UTC) Yonkou to Yonko, Ryuuma to Ryuma, etc. Any name with an extra u is changed to a name without the extra u, at least, I think so. If there is any other name changes, I have no idea about it. 17:16, July 22, 2012 (UTC) : thanks! I get the idea, just what i read in the last huge post on this matter Khaliszt (talk) There will be a poll eventually. I will change the names regardless if this forum is continuously ignored. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, July 22, 2012 (UTC) Well, then, lets do a poll or not? Anyway a poll will make us change all the names again and the same cicle would start.. Khaliszt (talk) 18:44, July 22, 2012 (UTC) The issue is the names should never have been changed in the first place. Just read the forum. They changed all names just because of how one single name was spelled in one databook. It was completely moronic. SeaTerror (talk) 19:01, July 22, 2012 (UTC) Still, this is perfectly OK as is, so no need to change it. I believe you're the only one insisting on changing it back. The names are incorrect pronunciation wise so yes they do need to be changed back. There's a difference between Ryuuma and Ryuma. They should not have been changed. SeaTerror (talk) 20:18, July 27, 2012 (UTC) Well, I agree with what JOP said way up above. And I feel like this is a hard thing to have a single, cover-all policy for. To me, it seems like different names require different translations, based on what is necessary for understanding them in english. It's about balance between English and Japanese, and that balance changes with each thing that's translated. [[User:JustSomeDude...|'JustSomeDude...']] 20:31, July 27, 2012 (UTC) JSD: ST only talks about pure Japanese names, for which we have no "English romanization", like Sentomaru or Ryuma. ST: I'm going to quote you: "there are 3 main ways to romanize. None of them are wrong". What we use is one of these three ways. Therefore it's not wrong, so no reason to change it. This is pointless nitpicking. Even our Japanese wikians think so. Don't you mean Sentoumaru or Ryuuma? It should not have been changed in the first place. We know that there are 3 correct types of romanization however others are better and more correct than others. 1) Macrons are the most correct way to spell names. It just becomes a pain in the ass to deal with. 2) Next is uu and ou as the 2nd most correct way to romanize a name for pronunciation purposes. 3) A single u is the least correct way and is by far the worst of the 3. The names are better off either as macrons or uu. They just should not have been changed in the first place. SeaTerror (talk) 20:49, July 27, 2012 (UTC) Still that's correct as is. Plus, there has been a poll. You can make another poll if you want, but I don't think you can change it back without the community's agreement. Then you have to write names so weirdly if you want to link thins in articles.. Khaliszt (talk) That's why redirects exist. SeaTerror (talk) 01:55, July 28, 2012 (UTC) What should the poll options be? SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Before the poll, let me mention that Ryuma and Ryuuma are pronounced exactly the same way in English. That's all. 18:45, July 29, 2012 (UTC) There's actually a slight pronunciation difference. SeaTerror (talk) 18:50, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Extending the "u" phonem a bit more, isn't it? Khaliszt (talk) 19:58, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Poll options: something along the lines of "use macrons", "use double vowels", and "leave as is"… What else? Probably a double vowel option saying "but leave confirmed names spelled different." Like Kaido instead of Kaidou. Although that could probably be part of the double vowel option anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 20:33, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, of course! It should be clear that this is only for unconfirmed, Japanese-like words/names. When will the poll be? Khaliszt (talk) 21:10, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Whenever. These polls usually last for 2 weeks but since this one is more of a major kind it could probably last longer. SeaTerror (talk) 17:29, July 31, 2012 (UTC) And what are we waiting for? Khaliszt (talk) 16:21, August 1, 2012 (UTC) Here's my proposal: Opinions? It's fine as long as the confirmed name thing stays. SeaTerror (talk) 23:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC) I think it's a great option: Everything we know we write it as it's known and said by Oda. And the unconfirmed ones using Macrons. I go along with the third option. Do I sign in there? XD Khaliszt (talk) 23:44, August 4, 2012 (UTC) People wouldn't want macrons because its too much of a pain to use them even if its the most correct way. That's why I say use "uu" since its the 2nd most correct way and is easy to do. SeaTerror (talk) 00:01, August 5, 2012 (UTC) I totally agree with you, ST.. it's true. Macrons are more correct BUT its a pain to use them. I wouldn't mind, but I still understand it.. so uu, ou is a second good option.. Khaliszt (talk) 00:05, August 5, 2012 (UTC) I'll add the poll now. SeaTerror (talk) 03:31, August 5, 2012 (UTC) Poll The voting close at August 18, 2012. You must have been on here for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll. Should we change the spelling of Japanese names/words not yet officially romanized? (For example Ryuma to Ryuuma/Ryūma, Sentomaru to Sentoumaru/Sentōmaru, Yonko to Yonkou/Yonkō, Santoryu to Santouryuu/Santōryū, etc. but NO CHANGES to Kaido, Hyouzou, Jinbe, and other confirmed names) ;No, leave everything as is. #Sanji the Cook (talk) 04:13, August 5, 2012 (UTC) # 03:59, August 5, 2012 (UTC) # ;Yes, use "double vowels" (Wāpuro_rōmaji). #SeaTerror (talk) 03:31, August 5, 2012 (UTC) #--Cheese Lord (talk) 05:25, August 5, 2012 (UTC) # ;Yes, use macrons (Hepburn_romanization). # 04:19, August 5, 2012 (UTC) I quite like macrons, really. # Monkey.D.Me (talk) 04:58, August 5, 2012 (UTC) I like Trains. #